I’m reading Courtney’s enthralling new book, and while I think she’s spot-on with her analysis of women’s issues, I think the male mind works in different ways than she recognizes. She writes:
Sex drive, like hunger, is not easily circumscribed….A guy can’t make himself like a round belly if all he’s stared at for months on end is flat-as-a-board tummies…Guy after guy has told me that he feels as if he possesses two totally separate sexualities, the one in front of the screen and the one in front of the girlfriend. I’m skeptical. I know that when I get a pop-up ad for Häagen-Dazs while checking my bank account balance, I end up craving ice cream, not the frozen yogurt already sitting in my freezer.
Well, speaking as one of those guys who expressed this paradigm to Courtney while she was writing her book, I respectfully disagree. We males grow up with a powerful emotional disconnect, which can sometimes be very hurtful to those around us, but can also be downright useful.
I’ll give you a non-silicone-related example first. My father is super-diligent about checking on his health-related problems. He’s not a hypochondriac, but he does sometimes ask for tests that doctors don’t see the need to administer, just to make sure everything’s working correctly. He also smokes. And sometimes he gets it in his head that he’s having a heart attack, or that the cold he has really is lung cancer. For years, until she learned how to properly set it aside, this would scare my mother. But I didn’t let it affect me. I compartmentalized it, stuck the feelings of anxiety and fear away to be dealt with later if anything was actually wrong. Sure, there’s always a little leakage, but for the most part I think it’s a healthier way of dealing with it than to emotionally react to every little concern.
So coming back to the pornography issue, I believe that for many men this abstraction, the compartmentalization that Courtney is skeptical of, is a reality. And with porn, as in loss, it is useful. The average 20-something male has a sex drive that could fuel a Lamborghini. For many guys (although this gets less true as they get older), their average girlfriend/wife does not want to have sex as much as they do. And for some, those like myself in long-distance relationships, the lack of time spent together adds an unwelcome extra wrinkle. The male sex drive can feel oppressive, more like a visceral need than a casual desire. Moreover, I think our biology is geared to make men seek variety over consistency. Guys can A) bug their girlfriends/wives for more sex (maybe with crazy outfits or roleplay) B) seek it elsewhere from strangers, prostitutes, or mistresses or C) simply satisfy themselves with Internet pornography.
Now, like Courtney says, I think pornography can be very harmful. She cites examples, the porn addict equivalents of serious anorectics, the ones who cannot have normal relationships with women because of the ideals porn creates in their minds. I would argue that these men are the ones who have abstracted way too far, taken the repression of feelings and compartmentalization to a point where they can no longer access their emotions, their connection to a real, living woman in front of them.
But for the average guy, the one who can compartmentalize, disconnect, and come back, I think they really can watch the ice cream every day, then come back to the frozen yogurt. Know why? When they are watching porn, the girlfriends are tucked away in their minds, safe from the taint of the unattainable images. And when they are with their girlfriends, the porn stars are unseen, unheard. It’s not a perfect arrangement. But it’s better than the alternatives.
Go figure, I take issue with Ethan’s post. Not the main point—that compartmentalization can be a good thing at times—I can (gasp) agree on that. But seriously, I am so over all the sitcoms, and talk shows, and writers (usually male) who perpetuate the idea that men want/need more sex than women. I can point you to dozens of couples where the exact opposite is the case. And I think it’s a pretty visceral experience for everyone, regardless of gender.
And don’t even get me started on the so-called biological justification for the male wandering eye. This is one of those things I think is very clearly a social construct and people have been using the same tired, unproven evolutionary explanation to justify it since Darwin found his turtles.
Well, Kate, at least this time you expressed your anger in the form of a comment!
The male wandering eye–I sort of chose to leave that one alone for today since I think it warrants its own post. But safe to say, you’re going to hate what I have to say about that as well.
I didn’t want to get into it in full in the column, but I do think the sex drive issue is more complicated than it’s portrayed to be. I do think it’s an issue of frequency at the younger age. I don’t have proof of this, but I’ve always heard that men’s sexual peaks happen around 18, while women’s happen more in their 30s. Which would support the idea. But I also think the sexual disconnect can have plenty to do with the variety issue, which I promise, PROMISE, to piss you off about in a future post.
I don’t think compartmentalization is a specifically male thing at all, but Ethan makes a good point. Guys don’t want porn stars for girlfriends– they only think they do for about seven minutes. At minute 8 that girl better be gone. It’s the virgin/whore thing that goes back to the dawn of civilization. But as far as body type, sure, men want nice bodies as much as women (or maybe a bit more.)
And sorry Kate, but the male wandering eye is very real. The concept is supported in nature by virtually every animal (especially predators like us). The most desirable women, in my opinion, know how to change their look. Men don’t want sex more frequently (I too am sick of the sitcoms) but naturally crave a variety. I can’t think of a culture where this isn’t the case. That’s by no means an excuse to cheat, but women with faithful boyfriends everywhere should appreciate the loyalty of their men.
The male sex drive can feel oppressive, more like a visceral need than a casual desire.
I think it’s a pretty visceral experience for everyone, regardless of gender.
My own experience is that it’s not so much a direct and obvious visceral need as a constant background irritation, an ache. That might be gender difference, but it’s probably just differences in personal experience, I guess.
I’ve always heard that men’s sexual peaks happen around 18, while women’s happen more in their 30s
Oh, no! My sex drive is gonna get worse? That can’t be right.
On the other hand, I can easily believe that women enjoy sex more in their thirties because they’ve become more in tune with what they like, so maybe that’s it.
Or maybe I’m doomed…
That’s by no means an excuse to cheat, but women with faithful boyfriends everywhere should appreciate the loyalty of their men.
OK, I can do that much when I get the chance
Porn is not fidelity, Theo; at least not how I see it.
Ethan, bless your heart, I ripped this post at my place just now.
If fantasy is cheating, monogamy is utopia.
So here’s Hugo’s post. It’s got a lot of good points:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/04/30/the-average-guy-who-can-compartmentalize-disconnect-and-then-come-back-a-response-to-ethan-on-porn/
What a treat to discover that I–via Ethan–have sparked this kind of conversation.
While Ethan thinks I have underestimated how different the male mind is from the female, I argue that he has wildly exaggerated how different female psychology is from male.
I know plenty of women who are damn good at compartmentalization. Remember the sex chapter of said book? My friend Jen’s college years are proof that sometimes too much compartmentalization can destroy someone. I agree that a little can go a long way, but unfortunately taken to its extreme, compartmentalization can lead to double lives. That ain’t good for anyone.
Like Hugo, I think it is dangerous to perpetuate the idea that men have “out of control” sex drives threatening to obliterate their wiser selves at ever turn. We all have sexual fantasies. We all have to create our own boundaries. We don’t all have to choose to be in monogamous relationships, but if we do, we all have to deal with the consequences–less diverse sexual experiences.
And what about more natural porn?
Court,
Of course I agree that women have a capacity for compartmentalization, with the same dangers and advantages. I just argue that because women are encouraged to share their feelings from an early age while men are encouraged to hide them, guys move in that direction more easily–for better and worse. And thanks for focusing on that aspect of the post, which was the main point I was making. The post wasn’t meant to be a defense of porn, although I guess it came off that way.
I don’t know about “out of control” sex drives or “perpetuating a stereotype,” but I do know that I, personally, and many men I know, find it to be a very oppressive thing. It is hard to ignore, a constant refrain that requires attention whenever a pretty girl passes, a flash of skin shows on screen, etc. But I agree that it is not something that requires special accommodation or pity. You just deal.
I’m going to address monogamy next week. Stay tuned. Also, there’s an interesting discussion on this same topic going on at Hugo’s blog that I would check out.
And what do you mean by “natural porn?”
I presume that by ‘natural porn’ she means porn that isn’t airbrushed and so forth.
Oy Vey. Why do my comments always swell into blog posts?
http://www.jeremybroomfield.com/archives/2007_05_01_udarchive.html
Oh I remember why: because I’m an attention-seeking egotistical know-it-all. JUST LIKE ALL BLOGGERS. Word up.
I think people here might be dangerously underestimating the male sex drive. I don’t have sex crime figures handy, but I’d be amazed if more than 1% were perpetrated by women. These statistics skyrocket in poor communities. The number of women I have personally known who’ve been violated in their youth by male caretakers is staggering. In some Caribbean communities, a father violating their daughter is regarded like a dirty but acceptable little secret.
Of course, women have fantasies. But it’s the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing one.
I know very even-keeled men. I know men who are virtually a-sexual But these are the exception, and the connection made by the average man btwn sex and power is omnipresent. I had a student just today tell me how she was groped from a car, then when she confronted the man inside there were three men, one showing her a gun. She ran and got away, but think of what those men did next.
Do you really think a group of women would behave this way?
It is irresponsible not to recognize this discrepancy. I understand that women hate the implications of unfairness in a relationship. But the male sex drive is bigger and way more dangerous than that. For anyone who wants to bring a child into this world, it could be a girl, and she needs to be educated– beware of some men.
We have to stop thinking in these terms, that this question is only about boyfriends, or the men who read this blog. Remember that insane people are exaggerated versions of ourselves. While most of us are able to control our male sex drive, it is a beast that maybe a woman or a naturally subdued man cannot understand.
[...] Ethan, at Crucial Minutiae, writes: The male sex drive can feel oppressive, more like a visceral need than a casual desire. Moreover, I think our biology is geared to make men seek variety over consistency. Guys can A) bug their girlfriends/wives for more sex (maybe with crazy outfits or roleplay) B) seek it elsewhere from strangers, prostitutes, or mistresses or C) simply satisfy themselves with Internet pornography. [...]
Theo – I think you’re making an assumption in your comment, and I’m trying to articulate what it is that I think is incorrect. So please pardon the ramble.
It seems that many people think that male sexual aggression is inseparable from male sex drive. While I agree that the example your student provided is a grim reminder of the urge to dominate found so often in male social groups, their victim was not chosen because she was a woman; more likely, she was chosen because she appeared like an easy target. In other words, the men in that car were not feeling horny – they were feeling aggressive.
The incidence of rape and sexual abuse within the American prison system is unbelievable; are we to believe that it is linked directly to male sex drive – that the men committing these crimes are somehow closeted gays? That’s an insult to homosexuality, which is not about dominating other men (as it is in the prison system).
If men’s sex drive were responsible, truly, for rape and sexual assault, then there wouldn’t *be* any rape and sexual assault, because the male sex drive is, as I understand it, simply an urge to copulate. Say what you will about sex in modern-day America, copulation doesn’t need to be aggressive. But rape isn’t about having sex – otherwise people who were not sexually appealing would never be victimized and people who were sexually appealing would be victimized all the time. We know that this isn’t true. It is the appearance of weakness, of inability to fight back, that is “attractive” to rapists. And that’s another thing – the levels of testosterone and other measures of male sex drive have been found to be no higher in repeat-offender rapists than they are in the average male. And I doubt anyone can say with a straight face that all men are potential rapists.
In your comment, you make no mention of what actions these “some men,” the men that a girl needs to be taught to beware of, can do about their own impulses – and that is another point I never see being addressed. As a woman, I have been taught from an early age to beware, to be careful – with the unwritten caveat that if I’m not, then I’ll deserve what I get from the man in question. Why are we not teaching men from an early age to be careful? If the male sex drive is so dangerous, so all-consuming, shouldn’t we be teaching men how better to deal with it? My sociology professor once said that penises, like cars, should be registered and licensed – and only after taking a comprehensive test. Sounds like a better and better idea all the time.
That all being said, I’m really loving this argument. I’ve gotten a lot to think about from what everyone has said. Who knew that there could be polite, interesting debate over a controversial subject online?
I think sex drive is “driven” by hormones and that the intensity depends on the particular balance or imbalance. Yes, there are sex addicts. Not sure if that’s hormonal or not. I think it’s like any other addiction… a person is trying to fill a hole that can not be filled. But rape? Sexual crime? From what I understand that has much more to do with power than sex.
Abigail, you make a number of good points. I appreciate you stopping by and contributing. Theo, I also don’t think that the male sex drive is the relevant issue when it comes to rape. Like Kimmi, I am led to understand that is about power and powerlessness. But that’s a topic I’m staying away from for a little while until I get more comfortable talking about these issues. My experience with bringing up this pornography subject, while generating an excellent debate, has taught me that I need to develop my ideas a little better on sensitive subjects before putting them out there, because other people seem to have thought about them in way greater depth than I have.
That being said, I’m writing about the wandering eye next week, so it may be a case of “the diet starts tomorrow.”
We might be thinking ourselves out of common sense here.
Yes, rape is about power. That is a very commonly misunderstood truth. It is about power dynamics, violence and domination, which lead to arousal. If it were solely about power, why would there be sex? Why wouldn’t women rape as often as men? Without arousal, rape would be impossible.
Sex is inexorably linked to aggression. Men and women, in any culture, if there is no aggression in your sex life, YOU’RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT.
So if the problem here is about what’s connected to the sex drive, and what’s more about man’s overall will to power, that seems semantic. These two desires are as hopelessly intertwined as power and money. If you believe that sailor’s knot can be untied, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Just because every man isn’t a rapist, doesn’t mean that many men don’t struggle with aggression, power and sex drive. A woman’s reality is vastly different. Why are we trying to make everyone the same? Sameness isn’t equality!
This idea that the male sex drive is “simply an urge to copulate” seems to come from an urge to simply make men seem safer. Under that assumption, homosexuality would be technically impossible (talk about an insult). It may be difficult to confront and understand what men can be capable of, but it’s an ugly side of the human condition.
Abigail, I have to admit I’m not quite following your argument. It sounds like you want to disagree with me, then in the end you seem to have adopted my point—
“…penises, like cars, should be registered and licensed – and only after taking a comprehensive test.”
Exactly.
I am going to focus on what seems to be your guys idea of porn. I do not think it’s fair to relegate it to airbrushed, fake-tittied, white chicks getting railed (even though that’s a large majority of what you hear, jenna jameson and the like.) Sorry to air you out like this Court, but at one point, she thought all female pornstars had fake tits (I know she knows that is not the case now.) The great thing about the internets is that there is such a wide range of information accessible. I would think that people would be able to find whatever turns them on (though it may take a little more effort.) If you are in to larger women, or someone that looks like you, or clown feet, or food, you can find it. At least for me, i find this media doesn’t affect my ideas of what is attractive, but vice-versa.
Also, can i suggest a the title be changed to “Punch-for-Donkey-Punch”
And also, can someone start a NetFilx for pron and call it “NutFlix?”
My busy week hasn’t allowed me to chime in on this post, but i will say BUBBAJ — you are so wrong for your proposed post title. I love it. You are fantastic.
Hugo Schwyzer has another post on this topic. This really touched a nerve:
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/05/03/some-further-thoughts-on-relationship-fidelity-porn-use-and-how-we-negotiate-boundaries/
I really got reamed over at Hugo’s site, which is fine, but I do want to make the point that I was writing about what I see as the general condition of porn and men in relationships, and the role of compartmentalization, NOT the specific conversation/framework that my girlfriend and I have on the subject. This reflects my perspective on the issue, not my own, personal relationship with the subject.
As I said at my place, Ethan, I am sorry that we’ve been writing about this in such a way that the hypothetical and the real have gotten mixed up. I’ll make doubly sure in the future to separate them in future posts!
Ew.
Hugo, read my post on my blog, linked above. Porn is not a substitue for real relationships. They do not even remotely satisfy the same goals.
Theo, I think the position summarized in the statement “Sex is inexorably linked to aggression. Men and women, in any culture, if there is no aggression in your sex life, YOU’RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT.” is not just biologically wrong, but totally gross. Ew.
April, you are awesome, and totally on target.
Jeremy–
Are you a virgin?
Jeremy writes: “Porn is not a substitue for real relationships. They do not even remotely satisfy the same goals.”
Oh, I agree. But that doesn’t stop porn use from having a catastrophic effect on real relationships.
Now, now, Theo. No personal attacks.
Dude…if you think for one second that women in their 20s have a lower sex drive than guys in their 20s…you’re off your tree, and I feel sorry for you. I dunno what sort of girls you’ve been hanging around, but all my girlfriends want sex at LEAST as much, if not more than, the guys I’ve known/dated. This includes myself. Girls aren’t any less sexual, they’re just a lot less crude about it than guys usually are.
but I’ve always heard that men’s sexual peaks happen around 18, while women’s happen more in their 30s
It’s one of those things that everyone’s “heard”, but nobody seems to know where the numbers come from–or what they mean. (Peak of desire? Peak of ability? Peak of frequency?)
Theo, it seems really odd to suggest that if people don’t have or enjoy sex the way you imply that you do, they’re doing it “wrong”.
No, that’s the not the point.
Aggressive– bold and active; enterprising
–Webster’s
A first kiss is an act of aggression. A smile can be also. The whole point is that sex is impossible without someone making a move. I do not mean to confuse this kind of aggression with hostility. Sex without bold activity isn’t really wrong, so much as impossible.
I’ve just found this thread, and have read it (and a couple of the spinoffs) through. I must say I’m impressed with the intelligence and good manners of the debate.
Speaking purely from personal experience, I’d point out that porn only stimulates the visual and aural senses – leaving out taste, smell and (crucially) touch. I don’t know any guys who’d prefer porn to real sex, and for me the experience is completely different.
I absolutely agree with the many people who’ve called (here and elsewhere) for sensitive, non-exploitative porn that reflects the dynamics of real sex, which don’t necessarily follow the “girl gives man blowjob, get penetrated in several different positions, man comes on girl’s face” pattern. The very sameness of most mainstream porn is, I think, it’s major artistic weakness (leaving aside the exploitation issues – too thorny for this post).
One last comment, on the “Men are from Mars, women are from Venus” front: for me, sexual frustration wil build up in a series of small peaks into a crescendo, until it’s relieved either by sex of masturbation. My girlfriend says that she doesn’t experience the same cumulative effect. This doesn’t make me more horny than her, but it does mean that my sex drive is more predictably active. Each of us thinks we’re typical for our sex, but whether or not this is a universal gender characteristic is an open question.